The one thing scotty that we have to do, and even though i dont watch soccer, and dont like the way they talk, like they are taking over australia, but the one thing soccer and league can help each other is the fact they both play the same feild? one in summer, one in winter, now this is a big plus for league as well as soccer, and we need to stop the them and us routine and work together, as they have done on the coast.Now if the league had any brains, and i know they do, then we should sit down with soccer and plan out a expansion criteior across oz and new zealand?

New teams, not moving teams and disrupting the ones in place, we have already done this in sydney, no need to upset the cart there or you get more backlass, if a club is struggling in the future then they should look at this. But for now they need to go forward together, and support one another or fight each other, simple to see which is the better way to go, see this is what i never understand, why do all other codes want to fight league, inferiority, but league never has a go at them in the paper? If they look at league in england, it has been put down that much over the years, but within the last 2 years alone , has shown what a great game and support this league has, i was just looking at a old blog, dated 2006 by a rugby union gey reporting on union and league, he came right out, mind you after he had been repoting on the 2 games for years, with obvious biaise towards league, but he cam out and said he hated league, could not stand the game, and thought it was a load of crap,? Now you can see what league has been up against in england, even though it is the second most popular sport watched over there.League is growing leaps and bounds, this is why the papers are getting involved now over there, even blind freddy can see it is going to be huge. And soccer australia should take this in there sites or they will aggravate the australia public, work with league and stop the crap about trying to be the biggest game in australia, it will be big, but if they think everyone is going to stop wanting league, well i dont know what they are thinking. INferiority, This is their problem, but they dont have to be, as they have nobody to compete against in summer, only cricket?

So getting back to expansion, league and soccer can rule the market together, hence everyone is happy, and they can help pay for the grounds, because they will be useing them all year?

At teh ESL Grand Final last year, I was having a few opints with some Leeds fans... they basically said that the two sports, soccer and RL, don't really clash in terms of the fan base. Most RL fans like the soccer and vice versa, help that the season do not coincide. We watched the England v Estonis game (which I found very monotonous) before heading to Old Trafford... one of the best RL nights I have ever had!

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I wouldn't read too much into this a-league situation, i mean they can talk as much trash about league as they want, we just have to be better than them and not stoop that low. I feel the only reason it's happening is because people are starting to want RL back and it is interfering with the a-league finals in a way. Also any publicity is good publicity and soccer doesn't exactly have much dignity IMO.

Back on expansion i read in RLW that the sunshine coast is placing a bid for an NRL team. So hopefully WA will follow suit.

No i dont think we need to place anything on football, but we do need to work together, we use the same grounds and football has the cash, more than the nrl , so by working together they can acheive more jim,  look david gallop is not worried about a.f.l expansion, and perfectly right, nobody wants any code to do too badly here in australia, they all have a following, but what the a.f.l does realise is that there global market is zilch.

Rugby, football, and league all have world cups, nothing the a.f.l does here in australia is going to make up for global appeal, and this is where they fall down, now just think how long it would take them to expand world wide and the amount of dollars needed for this? This is why they want to expand, but by doing so, they are effecting ireland, would you want someone coming in and taking your players and making your game weaker? No.

And now think about world cups, league has one rugby one football one, and then olimpics every four years, no room for anymore, you can see why aussie rules wants to spread australia, but it wont make a once of difference, with league , football and union encroucing on melbourne, they will suffer down there, like sydney is with league, so there 18 team thoery will go back to 16, because you cant sustane this?

Now david gallop is sitting back and knows this, the world appeal is where the money flows, win this market, or a tiny slice of it, and anyhting that happens in australia is second fiddle, this is why union plays the six nation card so hard, to keep the game in the spot light,

League will expand in australia, but no need to rush it, otherwise you might shoot yourself in the foot, and perth is going about it the right way, 2013 after next world cup would be the time for expansion, by then the game would have grown, new t/v deals, and more money to do this?

The NRL ought to reduce the amount of teams that represent Local Government Areas from suburban Sydney.  Ideally, the four NRL teams that represent the western suburbs of Sydney -- Canterbury Bulldogs, Parramatta Eels, Penrith Panthers and Wests Tigers -- should merge into a combined team.  It could be called the "West Sydney Redbacks", or something similar to that..  The team would represent all of the LGA's that make up the western suburbs of Sydney (this would include the cities of Campbelltown, Canterbury, Leichhardt, Parramatta and Penrith).  The team can play its home games from the Campbelltown Stadium, Leichhardt Oval, Penrith Football Stadium, Parramatta Stadium and Stadium Australia.

The Cronulla Sharks should be relocated to the Sunshine Coast of Queensland.  It's impractical to allow a small beachside suburb such as Cronulla to have its own team.  Afterall, the suburb's population is less than 17,000.  If Cronulla can field a team in the league, then larger LGA's from Brisbane such as Redcliffe can argue that they should be represented, too.

The Manly Sea Eagles should be relocated to Gosford.  The council it currently represents, Manly Council, has a population of less than 39,000.  Gosford has a population of 300,000.  Therefore, the NRL franchise should be in Gosford, not Manly.

The St. George-Ilawarra Steel-Dragons should be relocated permanently to Wollongong and represent the Illawarra region.  The suburbs from the St. George District should be represented by the South Sydney Rabbitohs.  The South Sydney Rabbitohs could play its home games from the Sydney Football Stadium, a revamped Redfern Oval and the Kogarah Oval.

The Sydney Roosters can represent the CBD of Sydney and its eastern suburbs.  The Newcastle Knights would remain in the City of Newcastle.

It would end up with the following teams contesting the NRL Premiership:

Brisbane Broncos, North Queensland Cowboys, Gold Coast Titans, Newcastle Knights, Central Coast (Gosford, NSW), South Sydney Rabbioths, Sydney City Roosters, West Sydney Redbacks, Canberra Raiders, Melbourne Storm, Auckland Warriors, (Auckland, NZ), Sunshine Coast Sharks, Western Australia Reds (Perth, WA), Central Comets (Rockhampton, QLD), Illawarra Steelers (Wollongong, NSW), Wellington Wolves (Wellington, NZ).

The aforementioned changes would lead to each franchise having a larger fan base.  As a result, it might lead to the Sydney-based teams drawining higher attendances to their home games.  Who knows, the average home game attendance for the Sydney-based teams could reach 40,000.  If so, then the NRL could end up overtaking the AFL's mantle of having the second-highest attendance record per home game.

E3L, mate I think you have no idea what your talking about! Relocating the sharks and dragons would be a complete diasater! The poultaion represented in there by these two teams is huge, bordering more n like 1 million people! You take the dragons and Sharks out of the St George and Shire and one of the big RL hertlands are neglected and RU or AFL then will swoop in. Those areas are RL mad! Remember the sharks are not representing just cronulla, they are the Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks a massive poulation base.

The western sydney mergers would not happens, it was bad enough that wests and tigers had issues with fan base, when they meregd, they lost a lot of fans with that and had to work real hard to get them back in any capacity. Them the doggies, Parra and Penrithe, four teams with the most biiter rivalries in Aus RL, just wont happen. You need to be daft to think that Parra fans will come and support a team with doggie fans. They hate each other with passion, one of the things that makes the games to entertaining! Sydney has so many teams for one simple fact, 1/4 of australias population sits in that city, the demand is there and you'd be crazy to get rid of that.

Souths wanted to play out of Redfern, but the local Polies in the Sydney council had plans to to have the place bulldozed, only with some last minute whealing and dealing was it saved to become the training ground that it will be. Souths trainig will relocate there. The reason why they don's play the sfs and at ANZ is two fold. 1. The SFS is in the eastern suburbs and many souths fans did not like travelling into enemy territory. 2. many of souths fan demographic has shifted to the inner west, hence the move to ANZ, plus it was cheaper and has better transport. Will this make them relocate there, no, the area has teams already and Bunnies hertland is in Redfern.

There is no doubt that in time the comp will go to 18 teams, with the three most likely candidates being CQLD, Perth and Gosford. However there is the argument for gosford that the knight are only 20 mins away so why they dont go and support them? Why the knight cant become the Central newcastle knight or something? Also I think the NZ warriors need to be rid of. Not because I hate them, I love the kiwis and what they bring to the comp, but the QWarriors are whats killing the local comp in NZ and brought it down. The moeny and players need to be invested locally. I think if wellington came in it would absolutely decimate the kiwis and in a short space of time you'd see NZ drop out of the top 5 RL playing nations. Same goes for Toulouse in the ESL. I think its not a good idea to bring them in next year as it will kill all the good work the Elite is doing. Probably eventually get the Catalans out once elite it as a much higher standard.

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Yer me too, get the dragons out eventually and let the frence control there own super league, they had good results the other day according to the new news post on here, then the frence have there own super league, thats when you know the game is on?

Look one more thing, dont worry about crowd sizes, it means nothing, over half them people have yearly passes and pay for it, this is why they attend, if you look at the veiwing figures for league, this is where they make money, lots of people get fox and sky and austar for the league coverage, so this makes up for the lack of people at the games, but,, see there is always the but,,

 we need to start going to the games, and good stadiums, not to big, small 15 to 20 thousand is good in small stadium, good atmoshere, this is what they do in super league, we dont want big stadiums for our teams, only brisbane can support large amounts, so no matter what you here about a.f.l crowds, ignore it, they love useing this as there main ammo, one day there crowds will deminish, with all other codes growing, then what they going to do? i seen a game on fox news with small crowd and it was woeful, this is there problem, if they dont get the big crowds the game looks ,,,,,,,,,, just a mess.

Druzik:

You take the dragons and Sharks out of the St George and Shire and one of the big RL hertlands are neglected and RU or AFL then will swoop in.

The Sutherland Shire and the suburbs from the St. George District are located in the southern suburbs of Sydney.  The South Sydney Rabbitohs can cover the St. George District region and Sutherland Shire.  The Rabbitohs' would need to set up an affiliation with the schools from Sutherland Shire and St. George District.  Russell Crowe's involvement with the Rabbitohs would appeal to a lot of children, women and talented juniors from Sutherland and St. George District.  As a result, the South Sydney Rabbitohs' nursery for junior talent and fan base would increase.

In regards to your comment about the ARU and AFL taking over the Sutherland and St. George Districts.  If the Sutherland Shire and St. George Districts are big Rugby League heartlands, and if the South Sydney Rabbitohs adopted the two areas and represented their people, then why on Earth would the citizens stop watching Rugby League?  The populace of a Rugby League heartland will always prefer Rugby League to Rugby Union and Australian Rules Football, no matter what.  It's similar to the situation in Townsville.  Its status as a Rugby League heartland didn't change when the Townsville Suns NBL franchise was the only team from the region that was involved in a major sporting league.

Keeping the Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks in Sutherland Shire should lead to the team calling itself the Sutherland Sharks.  Around 215,000 people live in Sutherland Shire.  Only 16,000 people live in Cronulla.  Calling them the "Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks" is tantamount to admitting the Burleigh Bears into the NRL, saying that they represent the city of the Gold Coast, and calling them the Burleigh-Gold Coast Bears instead of the Gold Coast Bears.

Druzik:

Those areas are RL mad! Remember the sharks are not representing just cronulla, they are the Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks a massive poulation base.

The Sharks are rarely referred to as the Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks. More often than not, they're referred to as the Cronulla Sharks.  A few years ago they were known exclusively as the Cronulla Sharks. Therefore, the team is known by most people as "Cronulla", not "Cronulla-Sutherland".  It would be better to refer to them as the Sutherland Sharks.

Druzik:

The western sydney mergers would not happens, it was bad enough that wests and tigers had issues with fan base, when they meregd, they lost a lot of fans with that and had to work real hard to get them back in any capacity.

All joint-merger clubs experience teething problems during their formative years.  The problem is caued by parochial supporters who are against evolution.  They're usually middle-aged to elderly persons who hold onto the Rugby League moments they witnessed during their youth.  Catering to them is futile, as it equates to neglecting the younger generation of people who hold different views on Rugby League. 

Druzik:

Them the doggies, Parra and Penrithe, four teams with the most biiter rivalries in Aus RL, just wont happen. You need to be daft to think that Parra fans will come and support a team with doggie fans.

The other generation of fans may not support the side, but the younger ones will.  It's the younger generation who counts, not the older one.  The older generation of fans are dying off.  Rugby League's future is with the youth.  A lot of young people from the western suburbs of Sydney are passionate enough about Rugby League to support a new side that represents the entire region.

Druzik:

They hate each other with passion, one of the things that makes the games to entertaining! Sydney has so many teams for one simple fact, 1/4 of australias population sits in that city, the demand is there and you'd be crazy to get rid of that.

One could argue that the strength and heart of the sport is in Queensland.  Afterall, the internationals that are held in Sydney do not attract large crowds.  The ones that are held in Queensland DO attract large crowds.  The Sydney-based clubs rely on talented juniors from Queensland.  In the past, the Sydney-based clubs' poached Queenslanders as there weren't enough talented players from Sydney.  Therefore, it's arguable that the bulk of NRL clubs should be located in Queensland, not Sydney.

Queensland is the least centralised state in Australia.  Rugby League is the most popular sport in Queensland.  This means a fair few Queensland-based franchises could represent large areas.  The Sydney-based clubs represent fairly small areas.  Therefore, it's arguable that the bulk of NRL clubs should be located in Queensland, not Sydney.

There is a huge demand for Rugby League in Brisbane.  There is only one NRL club in Brisbane.  The Broncos aren't really challenged by the Lions, Roar and Reds.  Therefore, what makes you think that the western Suburbs of Sydney cannot be represented by one club?

The people who are old enough to remember the Brisbane Rugby League (BRL) competition will remember the rivalries that eventuated from it.  There were a lot of intense rivalries between the clubs.  It didn't stop the people of Brisbane from banding together and supporting the Broncos.

Look at the demographics of football in Melbourne.  There were some intense rivalries between the fans of the National Soccer League teams that were situated in Melbourne.  It hasn't stopped the Melbournian footballing public from supporting the Melbourne Victory.

I love expansion, the one thing you say about the older genaration not being important, well this is a problem, because oz population of older people is growing, more rapidly than youth, check the stats, i like your ideas, and as for brisbane expanding, yes gallop has seen this and has taken notes, ipswich and sunshine coast as well as logan are all good areas for a team, but sydney is so traditional, it would be like cuting off your arm, maybe if they were going down the tube and wanted to merge, then yes, but the t/v derbies we get of the teams down there are fantastic, why try to kill that?

Souths cannot cover it, look, the mentality in sydney is completely different. Sydney may be a 4.5 million city but its very tribal. You cannot just go and displace a team and expect people to take another on... it does not happen. I have been an ardent sharks fan for 20 years, and lived in the Souths sydney area and know exactly what the mantality is. They have their area and no other... people would rather switch codes than have to follow another team. Thses days cronulla have gone back to calling them selves their original name, they dabbled years ago with getting rid of the tribal association and just called the sharks, it was a down right flop and many fans still have bitter feeling about it, they still feel like they were swindled. Shire fans hate st gearoge and souths, their biggest games are against these two teams, you take those two local derbys away and the NRL looses out BIG time!

I do remember the BRL and when the broncos came into the NRL it absolutely destroyed the BRL, teams went almost bust. By 1995 there was nearly no RL in brisbane. Only the success of the broncos kept the fans there. Yes QLD is real heart land of RL, but a state of 3.5 million compared to a city of 4.5 million and a stae of nearly 10 million, cant compete. the players went to sydney because the comps there were bigger, richer and there was room for the players to go there. You need to remember that before 88 aside from the sydney comp, there were many country comps that wer quite rich and professional, Newcastle being one of them. Bringing in the regional teams decimated those comps.

As for younger generation... they follow the older. The elders have bitterness then the youngins have it also... I saw it for all my life in Sydney and Brisbane. There amount of fans that have left with the bears being kicked out was tragic. Now I am not arguing that they should have merged or not, all I am saying that there are fans that know the history of the clubs and live by it, young and old. I know many people younger than me who will NOT follow wests tigers or the current SGI as they know what the previous teams were like. Most have gone over to watch AFL since 'their team' is not in the top flight any more. Fickle yes, but that is the Aussie mentality. Its an all or nothing attitude that they take with them everywhere. If people younger people would be so willing to swap teams and so easily then you would not have had the 80,000 at the souths march... I was there have photos, the number of young kids and teenagers and under 25's was huge. They know the history of their clubs and dont want to loose it.

Australia does not have the luxury of promotion and relegation like the UK. Where if your team goes into the lower flight, you still support them as they have the chance to get back into the top... its not there. Thus fans want their teams to be there at the top.

The crowds in sydney tend to be small becasue of bad advertising. ads for the tests usualy start a week before, brisbane advertises everything at least a month before the even, people plan ahead there for sport. Brisbane may be ready for a second team, I think one team is not enought, the crushers certainly proved that there was demand for another team. the stadium is there at QEII, a 45,000 seater. One team is not enough for a city IMO, not in Aus anyway, If central and west sydney has 4 teams then brisie certainly needs at least 2. But i suspect that the Titans will fill that in, as people in beenleigh will tend to support the GC a bit more as its closer than BCC.  

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oikee:

I love expansion, the one thing you say about the older genaration not being important, well this is a problem, because oz population of older people is growing, more rapidly than youth, check the stats, i like your ideas, and as for brisbane expanding, yes gallop has seen this and has taken notes, ipswich and sunshine coast as well as logan are all good areas for a team, but sydney is so traditional, it would be like cuting off your arm, maybe if they were going down the tube and wanted to merge, then yes, but the t/v derbies we get of the teams down there are fantastic, why try to kill that?

Thats just it, You go to a Cronulla v StG derby and you pack out Endevour field to 20,000+. Kograh sells out at 17,000 and so does WIN. Parra and Penrith derbys are huge, Parra Cantebury derby's are massive as well. Souths St george, Souths Easts, Sydney has teams full of derbys.

Its like the argument on TRL going about having Hull FC or Hull KR in the ESL. only one team should rep the city. WHY! Two of the biggest games last year were the four derbys they had. ESL is soooo much richer for it.

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The BRL was nearing its demise by 1995, but Rugby League in Brisbane was not on its last legs.  Rugby League fans who lived in Brisbane during the time will testify that Rugby League was by far the most popular sport in the region.  The Broncos were a raging success -- a lot of juniors were playing for their local clubs.  The BRL's demise led to the inception of the bigger and better Queensland Cup.  Therefore, Rugby League in Brisbane was boosted by the Broncos' inclusion in the NSWRL Premiership.

Druzik:

Yes QLD is real heart land of RL, but a state of 3.5 million compared to a city of 4.5 million and a stae of nearly 10 million, cant compete.

New South Wales' population isn't that big.  According to Wikipedia, it is under 6,900,000.  Queensland's population is just over 4,182,000.  Therefore, the disparity isn't anywhere as great as you're saying.

It's an outrage that Queensland only has 3 teams while New South Wales has 10.  Queensland should have no less than 5 teams.  The state is large enough to support 5 teams.  New South Wales should have no more than 8 teams.  Any more than that makes the NRL look weak.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if we learned that Victorians are hesitant to take up Rugby League because it is seen as a NSW-based sport.  We all know how much the Melbournians hate Sydney.  Few of them will want to have anything to do with a league that is based almost exclusively in NSW.

The destination of the NRL Grand Final and Preliminary Finals should be held shared between Brisbane and Sydney.   For example, Brisbane should have the Grand Final in 2009, Sydney should have it in 2010, and so on.  The Preliminary Finals should be held in Brisbane when the Grand Final is held in Sydney, and vice versa. It would give our sport an edge over the NRL, as we would be showcasing the fact that our sport is looking to expand.

We cannot continue to pander to Sydney's Rugby league fans just because want to pretend that it's 1908 and not 2008.  We need to acknowledge that Rugby League's future lies in New South Wales AND Queensland.

I think this is right, because i lived in brisbane, it never died out, we all felt good about the broncos, and the other clubs slowly started getting more players through, whick lead to a more intense queensland cup, plus the added club incentives for making the n.r.l , its at its peak again now, anytime in the future would be a good time for another team, If they do expansion right now, and the only problem for any team would be quality players, like 3 lions mentioned, alot of the players move interstate because they have a affilyation with clubs down south.

oikee:

I think this is right, because i lived in brisbane, it never died out, we all felt good about the broncos, and the other clubs slowly started getting more players through, whick lead to a more intense queensland cup, plus the added club incentives for making the n.r.l , its at its peak again now, anytime in the future would be a good time for another team, If they do expansion right now, and the only problem for any team would be quality players, like 3 lions mentioned, alot of the players move interstate because they have a affilyation with clubs down south.

The QRL can amend the problem by adopting a different selection policy for the Queensland Origin side.  Introducing a rule that disallows the selectors from choosing players who are based in NSW would make a lot of Queenslanders think twice about playing for NSW clubs.

E3L i think your idea of merging most of the sydney based clubs is not a good one. I know if the bulldogs were merged with 3 other clubs i would be pissed off. The bottom line is if you did this there would be a sh*t load of pissed off fans and that is something no sport wants. Bulldogs fans would not want to watch a game with parra fans and so on. The local derbys are great and should not be interfered with. Sure maybe you would be able to get rid of or move 1 or maybe 2 max teams from sydney but no more.

I agree with you that there should be 5 QLD NRL teams, IMO these would be Broncos, Titans, Cowboys, CQ and Sunny coast. That is a good even spread as these 5 teams cover the big cities in QLD. Broncos = Brisbane, Titans = Gold Coast, some outer brissy suburbs, cowboys = cairns and townsville, sunshine coast = sunshine coast and gympie, CQ = Rockhampton, Mackay, Bunderburg. This is good enough for my likings i mean i don't think there is anything wrong with 1 city the size of brisbane have 1 team to support, besides driving from brisbane to GC last year i made the discovery that some outer brisbane suburbs i.e Mt Gravatt are just as close to GC then they are to brisbane, maybe closer. On the CQ side of things i know know most of what there is to know about RL in rocky so if anyone wants to know anythiong i should be able to cover it. I mentioned for the first time a copuple of moths ago that i think CQ would be able to host an NRL, actually i think i was the first person to mention it on this forum and now there is alot of talk about it, i would be all for a CQ NRL team, i would even apply for a job somewhere in the process if it did happen.

Back on the NZ and French leagues and how 2 teams in ESL and NRL would kill them off effectively, i have said it before but i think that if NZ win the WC then straight away while RL rides a wave of popularity in NZ look to get rid of the warriors, stay with me i have a reason. I will use soccer in AUS as an example, after the soceroos qualified for the soccer WC soccer turned from 'pommy crap' to the sport of the moment. On the back of this the a-league was launched, it was the same as the former soccer league in australia with a few changes, but since soccer was the sport of the moment the aussies took to it. Now if NZ could do the same and launch a 'new look' comp with and get the services of some NRL and or SL players than i think this would launch RL in NZ to one of the top sports. Soon there wouldn't be a need for the warriors since they would hopefully have a new, attractive, strong, people pleasing comp of there own. Same goes with france, if the can make the final of the WC or Catalans can make the final or win SL than it should bring the wave of momentum needed.